Disciplined Development with Michael Sommer, Chief Development Officer, Kushner Companies

On this episode, Aaron Strauss is joined by Michael Sommer, Chief Development Officer at Kushner Companies. Michael oversees development and construction efforts across the entire Kushner portfolio which includes residential, commercial, retail, hospitality, and industrial properties, over 12.9 million square feet currently under development, and over 26,500 apartments across 13 states. 

Michael’s storied real estate career includes over 27 years at the leading edge of development and construction. He’s developed more than 10 million square feet of residential, retail and office assets. Most notably, Michael led the development of over 6,000 residential units in New Jersey.

Prior to Kushner, Michael served as Senior Vice President of Development and Construction at Cedar Realty Trust, a NYSE listed retail REIT with a portfolio spanning from Washington, D.C. to Boston.  Before Cedar, Michael was Executive Vice President of Development at Edison Properties where he led the redevelopment of the award-winning Ironside Newark in Newark, New Jersey.  Michael also served as Managing Director of Development at Advance Realty after starting his career at Premier Development.

Michael holds an MBA from the Leonard N. Stern School of Business at New York University and a bachelor’s in economics and business from Lafayette College. 

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Transcript

A.Y. Strauss: Hello everyone, welcome to The Dealmaker's Edge. Today, I am really delighted to be joined by my good friend Michael Sommer, Chief Development Officer of Kushner Companies. Michael in his role oversees development and construction efforts across the entire Kushner portfolio, which includes a residential, commercial, retail, hospitality, and industrial properties; over 10 million square feet currently under development and over 20,000 apartments across 13 states. Michael's career goes back over 25 years, where he's been involved at the leading edge of development and construction. He's developed more than 10 million square feet of residential retail and office and most notably, you also led the development of over 6,000 residential units in New Jersey. Prior to Kushner, Michael served as Senior Vice President of Development and Construction at Cedar Realty Trust, a New York Stock Exchange-listed REIT with the portfolio spanning from DC to Boston. And prior to that, he was executive VP of development at Edison Properties, where he led the redevelopment of the award-winning Ironside Newark in Newark, New Jersey. And prior to that—and this is actually when I actually met you many years back—you served as Managing Director of Development at Advance Realty after starting his career at Premier Development. No, actually I met you when you were at Premier, I should say. Michael holds an MBA from the Leonard Stern School of Business at NYU, and a bachelor's degree in economics and business from Lafayette College. Michael, I know [I’ve known] you for a really long time but it's coming full circle. We're happy you’re here on the podcast and really, really happy you're here to share your immense knowledge and story, your amazing story with our listeners. So thank you for being here. 

Michael Sommer: Yes, my pleasure Aaron, and I appreciate the invite of course. 

A.Y. Strauss: So maybe we'll go back to the beginning? We don't have to go too deep back to childhood and whatnot, but you got started somewhere. And when I met you, you were already in development for several years and you're out of, you know, a prominent New Jersey developer, but how do you get into development when you're in college or before college? When do you start thinking about real estate generally? 

Michael Sommer: Yes, sure, Aaron. So, when I think about that question, I think back to college immediately. And as you mentioned, I was majoring in economics and business at Lafayette and like every kid, majoring in economics in the 90s, I wanted to be a trader. Why? Because I heard that traders made a lot of money. And not really for any other good reason. But I went and I worked at Merrill Lynch in the summer after my freshman year in college. I worked in global foreign exchange based in Jersey City that first summer. And I would say I liked it, but I didn't love it.

I definitely learned a lot. I definitely met some interesting people. I learned a bit about the business, but it wasn't “super intriguing” I guess is how I would characterize it. [I] [w]ent back to college, furthered my studies for my sophomore year. I went back to Merrill again for the summer after my sophomore year. I worked at the World Financial Center in New York, so it was a bit different of an experience. And frankly, I had an epiphany one day; I was sitting there in the office, in my suit and tie, on a hot July day, and I realized, I really don't like this. I don't like the environment. I don't like what I'm doing. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. And I thought very quickly about some conversations that I had with a successful real estate developer who happened to be a family friend who had told me time and time again that I should consider going into the development and construction business. And frankly, during those prior conversations, it never really resonated with me, but for some reason at that moment, I came to realize that it's something that I should consider. So, I went and I had a meeting. [I] had a further conversation about the details of what, you know, development construction really meant. And in the summer after my junior year in college, I went in fact, and worked on a construction site in Bridgewater, New Jersey for that developer. His name being Anatol Hiller, who's the founder of Premier Development. The long story short is … although I guess at that time it was somewhat counterintuitive that I would enjoy being in shorts and hiking boots and walking around a construction site as a college kid. I absolutely loved it. I quickly fell in love with it. I obviously must have shown that I had real passion for it and that it had real potential because I was offered an opportunity post-graduation to go and work at Premier full-time. So, fast forward through my senior year of college. I graduated, and in five weeks after graduating in May of 1996, I started in the business. And it was a long run there, I stayed at Premier for 17 years and that's clearly where I cut my teeth. I always say that it's the best education that money could never have bought because I really learned the ins and the outs of the business, and I only did that, frankly, by getting my hands dirty—figuratively and literally—on a very regular basis. 

But well in advance of ultimately leaving in 2013, in 2007 our business really started suffering. We were selling less homes, we were renting less apartments and things were really getting rocky, well in advance of the official start date of the Global Financial Crisis. And at that time, I remember thinking, you know, “what am I going to do that's going to be productive other than just working through this recession which is inevitable?” And I decided that I would go and pursue my MBA. So, I took the GMAT. I only decided to apply to NYU because I was only going to go back on a part-time basis. I was married for some time. I already had three kids, I had a lot of responsibility in this world, and I certainly wasn't looking to give up my position. So, I took the GMAT. I applied to NYU. I obviously was admitted. And I started business school in September of 2008—literally the week that Lehman filed for bankruptcy. So, needless to say, it was a very interesting time to be in business school. And for the next two and a half years, I juggled working full-time in New Jersey, driving into the city, parking in the Village, going to class at night, getting home very late, getting up the next day and doing it yet again. I ultimately finished business school and graduated with my MBA in May of 2011. In 2013—and you referred to it in your opening remarks—I moved on to Advance [Realty], and really the reason I moved on is I was looking for something different. I was looking for something that I thought would be bigger, and I was really looking to get involved with urban redevelopment at that time. And I went and I developed, at Advance, a building in Hoboken on 14th Street in Willow, known today as “The Harlow”. I developed a building in Harrison adjacent to the Red Bull Soccer arena, and we were involved in other very large-scale projects. And frankly, another opportunity came my way. I stayed in Advance for about three and a half or four years. And I was recruited to go to Edison Properties. And what was attractive about Edison is they had—and still have, I would say—the best New York metro area real estate portfolio of all time. And they weren't really developers historically, although they had developed some projects, but the key was they had a development obligation in Newark that had to be satisfied. So I came on board at Edison running development for the company, assessing all the different properties in Newark, obviously in the context of that obligation that I mentioned. And what we ultimately landed on was the redevelopment of the Newark warehouse building. We had looked at vacant parking lots, we had looked at different parcels in Newark, and the Newark warehouse building really made the most sense to redevelop because in my mind it was the key to really unlocking the potential in downtown Newark situated directly between Newark Penn Station and the Prudential Center. So, ultimately, we took this building that was constructed in 1907, we redeveloped it for a loft-style office on the upper floors for retail downstairs, [and] we added a penthouse level for a total of 456,000 square feet. And during the course of construction, we obviously had hired a broker, and we were talking to a bunch of different tenants, and ultimately, Mars Wrigley Confectionery—known for, obviously, manufacturing M&Ms—came looking at Newark and came looking at the building. We ultimately negotiated a long-term deal with them for 150,000 square feet. They relocated their North American headquarters from Chicago to Newark, which was a huge story for Newark, a huge story for New Jersey as a State, and really obviously gave us, I would say renewed optimism about the project that we embarked on some time before, and knew that ultimately this project would be successful. 

So fast forward through the completion of construction: Ironside today is a beautiful building. It’s been completed for some time with other office tenants and retail tenants in place. What was unfortunate is Jerry Gottesman, the founder of Edison, passed away at 87 years old during the course of that construction. So unfortunately, he never saw it completed. And frankly, the next generation of the family really did not have much of an interest in development. So once the project was completed, I looked for different options, and I was offered an opportunity to go to Cedar Realty Trust, which at that time was a small-cap retail REIT traded on the New York Stock Exchange, as you said in your opening remarks. And the business plan there was to run development and to take underutilized portions of their property and vacant properties and to develop a multifamily platform. So we got started on that, and things were going in the right direction, and I had some work going on in Philadelphia. And then of course the pandemic happened. And needless to say, the pandemic had an impact on every single business, probably throughout the world, but none more pronounced than on a small-cap retail REIT. And therefore, it became clear to me within a year and a half or so of starting at Cedar that it was just not going to be possible to move that platform forward. It just so happened, I guess as luck would have it, I got a call from a recruiter. I was told that there was a Head of Development role available with a New York-based company which had a large concentration of projects in New Jersey and also had some projects in Florida and that I was absolutely the right guy, but I wasn't told who the company was at that time. So, I had patience of course. I heard back. I heard who the company was. I took an interview which went very well. I took a second interview and was made and offered on the Zoom on that second interview to go and run the platform at Kushner. So I've now been there for over three years. We are involved in a number of large, exciting projects in both New Jersey and Florida. And I would say that the recruiter was right. It was a great match. It's a great match culturally. It's an incredibly talented team. And we have a really incredible platform and a lot of exciting stuff going on. 

A.Y. Strauss: Fantastic. You really just gave the full picture. So now we can go back in at spots and pull out more detail. But Michael, that was a fantastic overview for everyone to become educated on your full background. If I may, I'd love to go back to your years at Premier. We try to gear this podcast towards some people, maybe, five, six, seven, eight years in the business. Obviously, those 17 years were seminal for you. You learned so much. And you went through probably different stages of growth—not only in the asset level and building things, of course—but  as far as knowledge base and accumulating the knowledge. What can you say about those earlier years? Sort of the lessons you learn, you said you cut your teeth there. Obviously, development has 5,000 facets to it. But some of those key principles that you're happy you've gotten from those earlier years that somebody should be looking for in their first role in development. That would probably be very helpful for people to hear. 

Michael Sommer: Sure, yeah. Look, I would say it was far from glamorous at most times. It was definitely a very hands-on role. It was one where I spent a good amount of my time in my early years in the field, literally, working out of a construction trailer. And again, there were times at that time where I was thinking, “what am I doing? I'm a college graduate. I'm a capable guy, like, you know, why am I working out of a construction trailer in the middle of the winter in Somerset County, New Jersey?” But again, those are times that I would not trade for anything. Those times are truly the foundation, no pun intended, for the knowledge base and for the experience that I would say I utilize every single day. So look, it makes me think about the world today for people getting started in the business, and this virtual platform that we are even using today, I think for those just starting in the business, this hybrid model and not being in the office is the exact opposite of what people need in order to be successful and in order to get that experience, and in order to have those less-than-glamorous moments, and in order to have those unintended interactions that don't happen virtually, but clearly happen when you're there in person. So I would say it was that very hands-on, very deep in the weeds experience that I wouldn't trade for anything. I would also say that building a network from the very beginning in the business. I'm using contractors today at Kushner 28 years later in the business that I used when I was in my 20s. And there's nothing better, frankly, than having that mutual trust [and] having those long-term relationships and also, frankly, doing business with people that you like and having people come in and having a laugh about, you know, “yeah, I remember when you were 22,” and I would say, “yeah, I remember [] when you didn't have gray hair.” But having a good laugh about it and knowing that we can trust each other and, you know, it really being a good productive relationship. So, those relationships started way back when. And again, that very hands-on experience—learning how to build jobs, learning how to put in sight improvements, really learning from the ground up how the business works—is really something I would never trade.

A.Y. Strauss: Fantastic. And you're right. Those relationships … there's never a bad day to build a relationship. You always have to be investing in those relationships because that's where the benefit comes—on the backend of your career. And it's funny, we’ve known each other for so many years. You blink, [and] it feels like I met you five minutes ago, but it was probably … you were literally at Premier. What year was that? I don't even remember. But you blink and time goes. So every day, focusing on those solid relationships and attracting the people around you that'll help your career and building that knowledge base.

Let me ask you this also about development in general, I mean, because you went through the great recession, the GFC. Real estate markets today are somewhat shaky based on capital markets and interest rates, et cetera, et cetera. But the interesting thing about development is that by the time you go for approvals, and the time the thing is coming out of the ground, you're kind of in a different cycle. So it's good and bad, right? I mean, it's good in the sense that, [as] you remember there in the GFC, a lot of people were going for approvals and building all the soft costs and getting everything approved so that they can develop in the next market. And when you're at a long-term family-run business that's navigated many cycles, it fits really well within the ordinary cycles. But I mean, maybe you could talk about how you sort of ride those waves, you know? I mean, in New Jersey it takes many years to build something. You're in Florida. You're in other States. How do you think about the macro? I mean, when you go through the approvals from the beginning? You underwrite to an uncertain return because you don't know when the market you're coming out on. So how do you manage those conversations with equity investors, partners, lenders? I mean, there's so many people involved in any development. So maybe talk about the financial underpinnings, essentially, of writing the waves of development.

Michael Sommer: Sure. Look, it's a risk-reward business. There's no question about it. You know, there's a tremendous amount of risk associated with a lot of these projects, and you hope that the reward is there. Doesn't always happen, but I've been lucky, I guess. And maybe it's more than luck, but I really haven't been on the wrong end of those sorts of bets, but it is definitely a tricky business. I guess what I would say, Aaron, I would sum it up to say, you have to be super disciplined. You have to make sure that your underwriting is realistically achievable. You have to potentially plan for the worst. And look, it's the old adage that real estate is all about location, but it really is all about location. And therefore, if you're going to make a bet and you're going to know that it's going to take a while to get your zoning, get your entitlements, and get all of your DEP permits, and have your design completed, and get your permits. And then it's going to take several years—as you alluded to—in order to put a shovel in the ground. If you're in a well-located site, your chances are obviously very good. If you're on the fringe, if you're in an area that maybe there isn't the potential for real job growth, there isn't really the potential for rental growth, then it's even a more risky proposition, but you need to be disciplined, you need to be in the right location, and you need to plan based on the fact that it will take some time in order to get that shovel in the ground.

A.Y. Strauss: Well said, and it's managing risk and all the stakeholders, constant work and progress, I’m sure. Maybe we can try to focus on one or two developments you've been focused on now or the past few years while you've been in Kushner. Obviously, there's so many. There's Monmouth Mall. There’s a lot of projects that have been in the news and there's probably many small projects no one's even heard of because they're just day-to-day projects. But maybe you can walk us through, sort of, one you feel particularly fond of, so to speak? One you're invested a lot of time and energy into and you're starting to see some good, good sort of progress being made. Obviously development is literally always in flux. You're constantly looking to get to the end. But if you wouldn't mind sharing one or two types of projects you’re working on now that gets you up in the morning? [That] gets you excited? 

Michael Sommer: Sure. Yeah. Look, they're all exciting and they all have their challenges—each and every one of them. Very rarely is there one that doesn't have, you know, some type of story associated with it. But if I had to highlight two, I guess I would say Monmouth Mall is one and One Journal Square is the other. So I'll start in reverse order. And One Journal Square, this is a project that's been on the books in Jersey City and in Journal Square directly adjacent to the Journal Square PATH station for many years. Kushner bought us some time ago—certainly  well in advance of my joining the firm—but in June of 2022, we finally had the project fully capitalized and broke ground on the project. Ultimately, it'll be 1,723 units and  two 64-story towers over a 40,000 square foot retail component, which is fully leased to Target. So we started in June of ’22. Just yesterday, we poured the 50th floor of the first tower, and we are nearing completion and top-out of that first tower within the next couple months. It is a super challenging site. It was environmentally challenged. Even once we got beyond the contaminated soils that had to be removed from the site, we dealt with significant rock blasting and rock chipping and rock hammering. And although we were literally dumping money into the ground in order to come out of the ground, it didn't look like much for quite some time. I'm thankful that we're working with, I would say, the best contractor in the business in AJD. And they have been incredible to work with and really have been the driving force behind making this project that we've had envisioned for some time to come vertical. So that project is ongoing. It's a two million square foot project. A billion dollars in all. We’ll be starting the second tower in the next couple of months. Also, as we top-out the first tower, I'm excited a little over a year from now to have people moving into that building and really getting the full experience of what One Journal Square will be all about. In addition to the unit count and the retail that I mentioned, we have 40,000 square feet of amenities which is super exciting—indoor pool, outdoor pool, bowling alley, basketball court, squash court, rock climbing—really a full amenity package that'll be the centerpiece of that project. 

And then, this is a very different project but nevertheless super exciting and somewhat challenging is the redevelopment of the Monmouth Mall. So the Monmouth Mall has been on the books with Kushner in different iterations for a number of years. We bought out our partner just a couple of years ago and now we're the sole owner of that property. It's 102 acres at the Crossroads of Route 35 and Route 36 in Eatontown right off  exit 105 of Garden State Parkway, and in the path of travel east [of] Long Branch at the beach. So a really well-located site. It had approvals when I showed up at Kushner. And unfortunately, those approvals really were just not realistic in terms of what the approach was intended to be. So since then, we've redesigned it. I've got redevelopment plan approval, which is essentially the zoning for the property. We have a long-term pilot that I negotiated for 30 years for both the retail and the residential components. And we're currently zoned for 1,000 multi-family units. We have a million and a half square feet of retail today of which 600,000 square feet will be demolished, leaving 900,000 square feet. We’ll be turning that mall inside out and de-malling it and eliminating all those interior corridors, making it more of an outdoor shopping experience. We have a 40,000 square-foot-lease signed with Whole Foods. We're working on many other exciting retail opportunities for the retail. And we're in full design mode for residential. We'll be starting demolition there in the next couple of months as well with the groundbreaking ceremony schedule for the end of March. So super excited about that project. Really, really exciting. In 2024, this is really the reality of regional shopping malls and what ultimately will hopefully be constructed at many of these properties. So I would say that those are two of the highlights. Although we have plenty of others that we can talk about.

A.Y. Strauss: You know it's funny, just one of those projects seems like you can keep you busy at three full-time jobs. So congratulations on working on those two and many others. Let me ask you this, it's a stressful business. I mean, you've got a lot of responsibility. I mean, [] just a small development project, has a thousand things that can go wrong or right on any given day. And you've been in the business for a long time, so literally, and figuratively, you've worn a lot of hats. But on a bad day, something doesn't go your way, how are you pushing through? I mean, a lot of this business is a mental business, keeping your head straight, I call it “The Dealmaker's Edge” because I like to try to bring out some of the mental health aspects of managing a lot of responsibility, which you do. How do you power through when something doesn't go your way on any given moment, you know, or day or week or month?

Michael Sommer: Yeah. Great question. Look, first and foremost, I would say, I think I'm blessed by my ability to manage stress well. That being said, there are plenty of days where you don't necessarily want to be around me. And there are definitely moments—and I'm sure my wife and kids would agree—that I definitely get stressed. But overall, you definitely have to be able to manage that stress or this business is not for you. I would say exercise is a big tool for me. I try to exercise as often as possible. It, you know, if I shoot for seven days a week, it probably ends up being four or five days a week. But that definitely is a huge stress reliever for me, and I definitely do feel the difference throughout the day. But look, it's not a one-man show by any means. We have a great team. But my team specifically, when I showed up here a little over three years ago, I had one employee on the team who's based in Florida, and she's still with us, thankfully, but I've now built a team of about 15 or so people. And what I would say is it really does take a village. There are people working on so many different facets of all of our different projects. I’m managing right now about a dozen and a half projects of about 10,000 multi-family units pretty evenly split between New Jersey and Florida. So it really does take a team. It does take a village. One of the things I pride myself on is not only building good teams, but managing good teams and leading good teams, but also giving people the autonomy that they deserve and that they're able to take in order to be successful. And I say it all the time, if they're not successful, I'm not successful and visa-versa. And therefore, I always am making sure that I'm giving them what they need from me. I'm only attending meetings where I could add value, and I'm letting people run. And by the way, I should also say, we have a high level of tolerance for mistakes. Mistakes are naturally going to happen. We have no tolerance for complacency. We have no tolerance for stupidity and bad business decisions. But if someone is going to run and be autonomous and do their thing and make a mistake, it's inevitable that it's going to happen. And we'll figure out that mistake and we'll fix it together. But you have to have a good team. You have to support that team and you have to let people do their jobs.

A.Y. Strauss: No, really well articulated. I think that's leadership encapsulated. And you're right to have the culture that allows you to push and pull and twist. That's how you grow. And if you have that culture you create, it sounds that you're really in it, which is very positive. People feel comfortable admitting if they did something wrong, and then you'll all collectively own the process together. But it's much better to move fast and make a mistake here and there than to sit around and be complacent, especially when the world is constantly changing. Let me ask another question. I mean, we're probably talking about your career, which is development, and you're so deep in the space. But while we’re together, maybe for a minute or two we can talk about the broad market. I mean, it's not been a fun year and a half or two for real estate, for a variety of reasons, interest rates, et cetera, et cetera, the timing. What are you seeing as far as capital markets, appetite for equity investors, partnerships, lenders? Like we talked about before, development has a 3, 5, 10-year arc possibly, but you're also touching the deal side too. Maybe you can talk about how the market feels in real time versus even six months ago? 

Michael Sommer: Sure. Look, the market today is definitely, I would say, in a better place than it was six months ago. There is at least the light at the end of the tunnel as it relates to interest rates. And development is a long-term business. So while we're contending with financing challenges today on some of our projects, it is a long-term business. And therefore, we do have the stomach for the risk associated with it today based on what we expect to materialize in the future. What I would say is when looking at new deals, we are definitely very selective. We are definitely—and I'll use the “d” word again—super disciplined. There have definitely been plenty of deals that we've passed on over the last year to two years that we would not have necessarily passed on before. There are some deals that we have started slow pedaling for similar reasons. And look, what I would say also is, you know, we've been dealing with inflation. Inflation has affected each and every business and especially construction. In Florida, since we don't have as large of a team down there and as long of a track record, we're relying on GC's—general contractors—in order to construct our high-rise projects. But here in New Jersey, with the exception of the One Journal Square project, we built–I built with my team—an internal GC business, which is building all of our projects with the exception of One Journal Square. And therefore, that's given us the ability to really micro-manage pricing, to micro-manage commodities, to micro-manage availability of product—some of which has very long lead times—and to micro-manage schedules. So although we're dealing with these headwinds, and it's definitely making it more challenging to start projects and to move projects forward, we ourselves are really controlling the process. And also, when I'm having these sorts of conversations with potential equity investors and lenders, they're also seeing—based on not only my long-term track record, but our current track record as a team—that we're able to find our way through it. We're building in Fair Lawn, New Jersey 307 units today. We're building in East Hanover 265 units. We're about to start the 1,000 units in Eatontown. We have 360 units in Colts Neck [that] we're building. We're getting zoning and we'll start construction on 280 units in Livingston. We're starting 299 units in Long Branch. So the list goes on and on. And because we have that volume of work and that ability to micro-manage the process, we are finding our way through these challenging times.

A.Y. Strauss: Amazing. Is there a sense that ‘24 will bring some special opportunities not having been seen in a long time? Maybe people are calling you at their middle of development, or at the brink of losing a property [and] they need a developer, co-GP, white knight– call it whatever you want, rescue capital. Are you getting more of those calls today? 

Michael Sommer: The answer is definitively yes. There are opportunities really on two fronts. Number one, in terms of rescue capital and even just in terms of lending, it's a platform that has grown for us significantly and one that is super active for us at Kushner right now, both in terms of construction lending and other sorts of interesting projects. But also on the affordable housing front, the new round of affordable housing obligations are really just getting moving. The numbers for which were just recently published and therefore as a predominantly residential developer, we see a lot of opportunity on the horizon as a result of the municipality's obligations in this upcoming fourth round. 

A.Y. Strauss: Amazing. Michael, I could honestly talk to you all day about real estate and I love the fact that I go way back with you, but we've never had a formal sit down to really pull all those information out and it's been fantastic. Anything else you think I should have asked, but I didn't get to [that] you'd like to share any key thoughts or principles of development or life or business?

Michael Sommer: So Aaron, you know, I listen to your podcasts and I find it interesting to hear the perspective of others—both people I know in the business, people I know of, and some of who I've never heard of. And I know that you really try to dial in on good advice for people getting started in the business or people looking to get started in the business. So I'll offer one last thought that I hammer home to my kids regularly. And when they listen to this recording, they're going to say, “yeah Dad, we know,” because I do mention it all the time. But reputation is really everything. I could do an entire podcast on situations that I found myself in over the last 28 years where I had to rely on my reputation, and thankfully my reputation was untarnished and therefore it gave me the ability to solve some sort of problem that I was confronted with. So what I would say is, for those getting started, your reputation is everything and protect it at all costs. 

A.Y. Strauss: That really resonates with me personally. I always tell people I sa[y], you know, people can have good years in business, bad years in business, everything in between. You could be a billionaire, you could be impoverished, but a good name, you cannot take from anybody. And when it's your time to go, that reputation and the person you were and the way you treated people with integrity, that really is the greatest value, because you pass that on too. Michael, I really, you're awesome. I really appreciate the time. I know I really enjoy the conversation. I'm hoping by implication everyone listening will really learn a ton. I know they will. And I can't wait to continue to watch your stellar career and keep watching you grow and build and do amazing things every day. So, once again, thank you so much for being on. I really, really appreciate it. 

Michael Sommer: Aaron, thank you. It's been a total pleasure.